[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:00:56] Topic	rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- Init".
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:01:55] <rdieter>	ok, kde sig meeting start, who's present today?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:10] <rdieter>	ping: than, ltinkl, Kevin_Kofler, svahl , foo*
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:11] <svahl>	present
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:14] 	 * SMParrish here
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:15] <gbcox>	here
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:26] <Kevin_Kofler>	Present.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:46] 	 * Sonar_Guy peeks in
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:02:48] <pembo13_work>	present
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:03:31] 	 * rdieter thinks Sonar_Guy came for treats. :)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:03:40] 	 * wwoods lurking
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:03:58] Topic	rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeviceKit".
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:04:06] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler: I assume you added that one?  thoughts?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:04:20] <rdieter>	topic 1: DeviceKit
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:04:28] <Kevin_Kofler>	So the thing is, they're planning to replace HAL with DeviceKit.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:04:56] <Kevin_Kofler>	Most of HAL will still be available, but disk management conflicts with DeviceKit-disks (they'd fight over the disks).
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:05:11] <Kevin_Kofler>	So they want to get all the code using HAL for disk management ported.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:05:17] <Kevin_Kofler>	This affects at least Solid.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:05:50] <Kevin_Kofler>	The problem is that upstream Solid (like upstream of all the other affected packages, really) has no DeviceKit support yet.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:05:59] <rdieter>	that feature page has been updated a bit since last I looked at it, I *had* been under the impression that hal/DeviceKit wouldn't be mutually exclusive
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:07:32] <rdieter>	ouchie, imo, the feature completion of : 50% is optimistic/hopeful, at best, considering how many packages are affected, that potentially need to be ported/fixed.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:08:15] <Kevin_Kofler>	They wouldn't be mutually exclusive for most things, but the disk parts would probably be.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:08:33] <rdieter>	right, sorry, that's what I meant.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:08:48] <Kevin_Kofler>	Though in the Talk page, they have been discussing how to make them coexist as a contingency solution if they can't get things ported.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:09:26] <Kevin_Kofler>	The problem is also that their list is incomplete, at least Solid is missing, probably other stuff too.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:10:01] <Kevin_Kofler>	They only analyzed the packages which had a dependency on HAL libraries, but Solid uses the generic Qt 4 D-Bus binding to talk to HAL, not HAL libs.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:11:15] <rdieter>	The talk page has no feedback from davidz either, sigh.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:11:47] <wwoods>	I'd assume that davidz was busy with GUADEC and might not be back yet?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:11:52] <drago01_>	you should have asked davidz to be present
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:12:10] <rdieter>	wwoods: nod, that's probably it
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:13:45] <rdieter>	Pragmatically, without maintaining hal compatibility (which Matthias hinted at), I don't see a prayer of this feature landing. Nor I do I see enough time to get that many pkgs ported (esp the kde ones).
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:13:45] <Kevin_Kofler>	What annoys me is that we've barely completed the migration from Kudzu to HAL and now it's set to be replaced again.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:13:57] <Kevin_Kofler>	This churn in core system components is becoming a real problem.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:14:10] <rdieter>	but that's just IMHO of cource
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:15:19] <rdieter>	we don't really have the resources to help (much) here either, heck our plates are already full.  (maybe than and/or ltinkl could chime in)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:15:45] <wwoods>	It's possible that there will be compatibility libraries/interfaces provided
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:16:02] <Kevin_Kofler>	I'd have the knowledge to do the port, but I don't really have the time.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:16:59] <rdieter>	wwoods: nod, imo there's no other real option, there's simply too much to get done in too little a time-frame.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:17:29] <wwoods>	right, unless davidz knows something we don't, porting everything on that list is going to take *way* more than 4-5 weeks
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:04] <drago01_>	wait the list is "wrong"
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:12] <drago01_>	it lists everything that uses hal
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:20] <drago01_>	not all of them has to be ported
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:27] <drago01_>	"only" the disk ones
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:34] <rdieter>	drago01_: nod, someone needs to confirm each app's use of hal.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:35] <Kevin_Kofler>	But some stuff which is not on the list has to be ported, too.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:48] <rdieter>	which is more not-yet-done stuff to do
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:18:51] <Kevin_Kofler>	Like Solid's HAL support (IIRC in kdelibs).
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:19:04] <drago01_>	yeah we need a better/more usefull list
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:19:10] <Kevin_Kofler>	It's not listed because it doesn't link the HAL libraries, it uses the HAL D-Bus interfaces through QtDBus.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:19:58] <Kevin_Kofler>	Another problem is that DeviceKit is not even packaged yet.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:20:29] <drago01_>	solid is listed
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:20:33] <rdieter>	doh, ok, let's move on then.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:20:35] <drago01_>	under  Dependencies
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:20:46] <drago01_>	"Solid's (KDE's) disk management also needs to be ported to DeviceKit-disks. "
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:21:15] <rdieter>	no point in continuing to beat this to death.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:21:43] Topic	rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- Live images for F10 Alpha, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianVahl/CurrentPackageList".
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:21:54] <rdieter>	topic 2: Live images for F10 Alpha
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:21:56] <rdieter>	svahl?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:22:12] <Kevin_Kofler>	drago01_: I added that, but it's not in the list of affected packages.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:22:17] <svahl>	As you know I wasn't involved in recent development. So someone has to review my package list
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:22:27] <drago01_>	Kevin_Kofler: ok
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:22:29] <svahl>	main problem is the limited space (again)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:22:47] <rdieter>	always. :)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:22:57] <svahl>	for now koffice was removed completely because koffice-libs pulls in koffice-krita
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:23:31] <svahl>	also kaffeine (dragon player) and ktorrent (kget) is gone (compared to f9)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:23:50] <rdieter>	one goal here could be to make the image kde3-free, would save a bit.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:24:08] <Kevin_Kofler>	Getting rid of GNOME panel applets could help too.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:24:15] <rdieter>	I'm continuing to work on koffice dep issues.  it's painful, but it'll get done.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:24:20] <Kevin_Kofler>	It might get us rid of gnome-panel and its many deps.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:24:46] <svahl>	will there be a kde4 port of k3b in the neir future?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:24:54] <Kevin_Kofler>	On the other hand, using printer-applet would also mean dragging in PyKDE4.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:24:55] <rdieter>	yeah, there's a painful dep chain in there, I haven't bugged about yet (rats).  something -> gnome-panel -> libgweather
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:25:19] <rdieter>	PyKDE4 isn't very big though, we already have python.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:25:29] <rdieter>	+ possibly using guidance-power-manager
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:26:09] <Kevin_Kofler>	Anybody interested in packaging KPackageKit?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:26:28] <rdieter>	svahl: it'll come eventually, not sure about for F-10 though, I'll ping upstream (though, grr, he hasn't responded to my lsst few inquiries on the k3b ml)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:26:38] <Kevin_Kofler>	We also have to look at the current state of knetworkmanager and the NM plasmoid.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:26:47] <Kevin_Kofler>	Those are 2 potential alternatives for NetworkManager-gnome.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:27:09] <pembo13_work>	Kevin_Kofler: does NetworkManager-gnome pull in much gnome stuff that would otherwise not be in?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:27:16] <SMParrish>	I can take alook at kpackagekit
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:27:21] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler: nod, if we're going to be kde3-free, knetworkmanger isn't an option, so imo nm-applet or nm plasmoid is the way to go
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:27:55] <Kevin_Kofler>	I think kdelibs3 is the lesser evil compared to gnome-panel.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:28:13] <Kevin_Kofler>	There's still useful stuff using kdelibs3.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:28:17] <Kevin_Kofler>	k3b, konversation, ...
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:28:41] <Kevin_Kofler>	I think F10 is too early to drop kdelibs3 from the live image.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:28:49] <rdieter>	we can dream.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:28:54] <svahl>	:)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:29:21] <rdieter>	or, gasp, consider again to not limit ourselves to a cd-sized image.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:29:56] <SMParrish>	Even though I would like to lose kdelibs3, would be hard to replace k3b IMHO
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:30:27] <rdieter>	SMParrish: agreed
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:30:47] <Kevin_Kofler>	I think we can't drop kdelibs3 from the live image before at least F11.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:31:08] <Kevin_Kofler>	(And we won't be able to drop it from the distro entirely for a long time.)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:31:34] <rdieter>	no one is suggesting dropping it from the distro (yet, anyway)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:32:51] <rdieter>	so, what about image size?  can we discuss the pros/cons of dropping cd size?  any chance of that yet?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:33:53] <svahl>	I vote strongly for cd-sized images (at least for i686)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:34:25] <rdieter>	between, dvd's and usb's, it's conceivably an option for many (most?) folks.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:34:55] <rdieter>	svahl: then maintain *2* spins?  that's arguably worse.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:35:08] <rdieter>	svahl: why do you feel that way (still)?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:35:55] <Kevin_Kofler>	I'd suggest we first try to get rid of the GNOME stuff we no longer need.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:05] <Kevin_Kofler>	And if that doesn't bring the size down enough, we can revisit this.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:15] <Kevin_Kofler>	For the alpha, we can go with the current package list, it's just an alpha.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:34] <svahl>	main reason is that I'll be limited in testing the images when they are dvd-sized. And there's still the argument that dvd-roms are not as common as cd-roms
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:47] <svahl>	Kevin_Kofler: agreed
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:47] <Kevin_Kofler>	Getting rid of gnome-packagekit might save a lot of space.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:54] <rdieter>	ok, we can continue discussion later.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:36:56] <Kevin_Kofler>	So let's get KPackageKit in.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:37:10] <Kevin_Kofler>	And we should also look at the NM stuff and at printer-applet.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:37:34] 	 * rdieter thinks only gnome-panel/libweather is the only gnome dep that's big enough to make much difference
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:37:44] <Kevin_Kofler>	I think kerneloops could also be dropped.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:37:49] <Kevin_Kofler>	What's pulling that in in the first place?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:38:00] <rdieter>	ok, we can continue discussion later, let's move on for now
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:38:09] <Kevin_Kofler>	Dropping that should be as simple as "-kerneloops" as there are no deps on it according to repoquery.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:38:23] Topic	rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- EDU (kde-based) Spin update".
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:38:41] <svahl>	Kevin_Kofler: I haven't checked that yet. Maybe comps.xml?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:38:58] <Kevin_Kofler>	That said, kerneloops isn't the worst dep offender.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:39:13] <Kevin_Kofler>	Well, it may become one once we replaced the other GNOME panel stuff.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:39:27] <Kevin_Kofler>	There's also setroubleshoot.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:39:57] <rdieter>	that stuff is in the default live configs probably for a reason, should ask livecd list/folks first, before dropping stuff like that, imo.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:40:23] <Kevin_Kofler>	If we want to get rid of all GTK+ panel stuff, we'll have to zap those too.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:40:41] <Kevin_Kofler>	If we only want to replace what we have a replacement for, then of course not.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:41:24] <rdieter>	the gnome-panel/libgweather chain can/should be broken via packge splits (if possible), before just dropping stuff willy nilly
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:41:53] <Kevin_Kofler>	But we should replace things we have a KDE replacement for either way.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:42:02] <Kevin_Kofler>	E.g. gnome-packagekit -> KPackageKit.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:42:08] <rdieter>	of course
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:42:11] <Kevin_Kofler>	(Any volunteer to package that or will I have to do it?)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:42:35] <rdieter>	SMParrish volunteered
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:42:47] <Kevin_Kofler>	OK
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:43:09] <rdieter>	next topic was just a quick fyi, on edu spin status
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:43:14] <Kevin_Kofler>	SMParrish: Let us know once you have something ready for review. :-)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:43:27] <SMParrish>	kk will work on it today
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:44:21] <rdieter>	the edu sig (with a bit of help from me) is trying to put out a (kde-based atm) edu spin, I had made a quick-n-dirty preview, but since I had based it on F-9 + kde-redhat, had to pull it (calling it fedora and using non-fedora packages and all).
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:44:53] <rdieter>	in the meantime, a feature page has been created, and ks configs are now in git, and plan is to get this ready for F-10.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:44:56] <rdieter>	that's about it.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:45:25] <rdieter>	any comments? (or move on?)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:45:42] <svahl>	could you give a link to the kickstart?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:45:58] <Kevin_Kofler>	Do you really think Red Hat would have sued one of their most active contributors over a trademark technicality? :-)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:47:03] <rdieter>	no, because I wouldn't let it come to that. :)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:48:48] <rdieter>	svahl: I don't have it handy, I'll find something after meeting
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:48:55] <svahl>	ok
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:49:37] Topic	rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- PolicyKit patch update".
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:49:46] <rdieter>	topic: PolicyKit patch update
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:50:02] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler: can you bring folks up to date on what you've been working on here?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:50:16] <Kevin_Kofler>	You mean the KDM ConsoleKit patch?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:50:51] <rdieter>	yes
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:50:57] <rdieter>	doh,
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:51:07] <rdieter>	*Kit mixup
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:51:22] Topic	Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- ConsolkeKit patch update".
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:51:25] Topic	Kevin_Kofler setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- ConsoleKit patch update".
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:52:03] <Kevin_Kofler>	Patrice Dumas (pertusus) has made a version of the patch which uses libck-connector instead of copied code from GDM.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:52:22] <Kevin_Kofler>	I fixed some bugs in that patch and it is now in Rawhide, it appears to work fine now.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:52:37] <Kevin_Kofler>	I think this version of the patch should be more palatable to upstream.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:53:22] <Kevin_Kofler>	It also solves the problem of how to enable ConsoleKit support: it is now enabled iff libck-connector is found (can be disabled on the cmake command line, as I use macro_optional_find_package).
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:53:50] <Kevin_Kofler>	Of course in Fedora, it will always be found, I added a BR.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:55:25] <rdieter>	a large point of this exercize is to find a ConsoleKit solution that's more acceptable to upstream kde (so we don't carry a patch forever).
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:56:06] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler: many thanks for your efforts.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:56:40] <Kevin_Kofler>	See http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147790#c35
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:56:42] <buggbot>	Bug 147790: medium, medium, ---, Jindrich Novy, CLOSED RAWHIDE, "xwdtopnm: object too large"
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:58:00] <Kevin_Kofler>	(of course the buggbot line is nonsense)
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:58:12] <rdieter>	Kevin_Kofler: thanks.
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:58:21] <rdieter>	Looks like we're about out of time, any parting thoughts?
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:58:30] Topic	rdieter setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "KDE SIG Meeting -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2008-07-15 -- open discussion".
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:58:59] <rdieter>	I was just goint to mention akademy 2008, where I'll be giving a talk on f9/kde, community building, upstream collaboration, yadda yadda
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:59:44] <pembo13_work>	i am not sure if this is considered important: attempted F9 live cd on a Dell GX something with 733MHz and 256MB, and it was basically unuseable
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:59:51] <SMParrish>	rdieter:any chance it will be recorded/videoed
[Di Jul 15 2008] [18:59:55] <pembo13_work>	have Fc5 + KDE on that machine for my bro right now
[Di Jul 15 2008] [19:00:01] <rdieter>	SMParrish: hope so, was last year
[Di Jul 15 2008] [19:00:12] <rdieter>	pembo13_work: take that back to #fedora-kde
[Di Jul 15 2008] [19:00:18] <pembo13_work>	rdieter: ok
[Di Jul 15 2008] [19:01:43] <rdieter>	alrighty, let's end here, thanks all.